“When there are resources we can achieve what we set out to do”

2023-04-25 00:29:11

Halfway through the interview, sitting with a coffee on the terrace of the Granada School of Architecture, Reinhard Genzel (Germany, 1952) rubs his mustache for a moment to think about the answer. The conversation about the supermassive black hole at the center of the galaxy, that singularity that absorbs everything, including light, has led to God. “No, I’m not religious,” he says. “But you can believe in God and work in science, it is not something exclusive,” he adds, reflecting on whether that hole is the beginning or the end of life. Or even the afterlife.

“I have a narrow look, I guess,” he says. I recently had a private audience with the Pope in Rome. There, a bishop said that the transcendence of Jesus Christ cannot be measured with science. I respect that, I don’t think he’s right, but I respect him. From my point of view, the Bible was a fantastic science book that tried to write down what was known about the universe at the time. The Old Testament, for me, is not the most impressive…». As he finishes this sentence, the chair leg fails and folds in on itself, causing Genzel to fall face-first to the floor. Back at the table, brushing off his clothes, he laughs at the situation.

–Was it God or gravity?

-Hahaha! Both, I’m sure!

Genzel, during the interview.

PEPE MARIN

Genzel is director of the Max Planck Institute for Extraterrestrial Physics and a professor at the Universities of Berkeley and Munich. He is the winner of the most important prizes in science, including the Nobel Prize in Physics in 2020, for the discovery of a supermassive compact object in the center of our galaxy. Yes, Reinhard Genzel is an eminence. This Monday he visited Granada to participate in a congress and give a talk at the Science Park, promoted by the Institute of Astrophysics of Andalusia.

With the first sip of coffee, the journalist tells him how, since he was little, every time he looks at the stars he tends to think about what will happen next, and then, and then… until there comes a moment when his head locks up and he freezes. restarts, as if it can’t stand the calculation. Is that a black hole? “The fact that? That place you imagine? –Genzel laughs with the occurrence–. No no. A black hole is a place that cannot be found. No matter how much you look at the sky, at the universe, no matter how much you tried to imagine it, you would never see it. When the glass approaches, the light that reflects on his glasses draws a kind of event horizon.

–What is a black hole?

–It is an object where gravity is so strong that you could never escape. Here we jump and return to the ground, but for less than 100 years we have known how to escape from Earth, with rockets. Nothing can come out of a black hole, but everything can enter. Imagine that you and I went in with a rocket, which would be great for you as a journalist, because you could write a good story… that nobody would read because nothing comes out of the black hole. It is a pity. And another thing: you and I would die.

–Instantly?

–In principle no, not instantly. In theory we would travel to the center because, once inside, the journey cannot be stopped, you could not turn around, we would fall to the core of the singularity where all the energy is concentrated and…

–Is that the end of everything? The beginning? The beyond?

–I can’t give you a good description, but it is certainly the end of physics in many ways. The theory says that whatever is put inside will end up at the central point, an infinitely small point: the singularity. Almost all physicists believe that this cannot be true, but it is the thing with theories, that they mean nothing until you can prove them. It would be wonderful to go inside and try it, but it seems that it would not be a good idea (laughs).

–A little dot.

–The Greeks believed for a long time that atoms were small dots. Then, when we had enough ‘resolution’, we saw that there were protons, neutrons, and electrons. And we went back to believing that neutrons and protons were small points, but that wasn’t true either. Everything is much more complex. What I describe on a minute scale is quantum theory, a theory that describes the world on its smallest scale. Well, it turns out that we do not have a quantum theory of gravity and that is very remarkable. We know very little about black holes and if we traveled inside we could write a good report, but, as I told you, no one could read it.

“We know very little about black holes and if we traveled inside we could write a good report, but no one could read it”

–Nobel Prize in 2020, the year of the pandemic. What did she feel?

–I did not expect it because I had received another prize, the Crafoord for Astronomy, which for the Swedish academy is equivalent to the Nobel in Astronomy. It is that, until recently, there were no astronomers with Nobel.

–How was the discovery?

We had done a lot of research. Lots of analysis. If you think about the solar system, you have the Sun in the center and the planets around it, orbiting. Now imagine that you see another group of planets circling something you don’t see. How do they move? Well, through the effects of gravity we were able to ‘see’ something that we could not see with our eyes. Before proving its existence, most astronomers doubted that there was a supermassive black hole and physicists said no, no way. Later, the astronomers became convinced and even the physicists began to doubt (laughs). It was tremendous.

–Since the pandemic, investing in science seems more relevant. Do we invest enough?

-Good question. I would say we need to invest as much as we can. It is clear that when there are resources we can achieve what we set out to do. The point is that we know how to build the best telescope in the world, but you have to pay for it. Why do we continue? Why do we care about black holes? They matter to me because it is my job: to know where they come from, what their role is… It turns out that when I give talks I discover that the general public is also interested. Why, if they are not physical? Out of curiosity. Human beings are curious by nature, especially children (some college students sit at the next table and a girl takes the chair that Reiner broke. The astronomer tells her to be careful, it’s not good idea).

–People support what they think is going to do something.

–Exactly, people are happy supporting things that make life better: cars, mobiles, devices… But it turns out that many of the fundamental things in technology arose out of curiosity, not because they were looking for something specific. Many of the most revolutionary inventions come from basic research. To play, well, to be curious. And I would like to continue playing for a while longer (laughs).

«Black holes are interesting because human beings are curious by nature»

–Therefore, research is fundamental to everything.

–Basic research is important to solve problems. With climate change, for example, many people believe that the solution is to cut, remove, remove and remove: don’t do this, don’t travel, don’t eat… No, I think the key is research because we still don’t have the technology to will solve the problem. And that technology is possible. There is the solution.

–Did you know Granada?

–I have come many times for the Iram radio telescope, in Sierra Nevada. The Max Plank Institute, my organization, is one of the three institutions that manage it. And Granada, of course, my God, what a city, what history, the Alhambra… I’ve been there many times and I always enjoy it.

–Does the name of Granada ring a bell in international scientific circles?

–The Institute of Astrophysics of Andalusia is well known, with many connections with European channels. Granada is a strong companion in astronomy, good to have around.

“I saw a bit of the movie ‘Interstellar’, but I didn’t finish it”

–Will we find life?

–Certainly, I would say that in the next 20 years we will be able to analyze the atmosphere of many exoplanets. I’m not sure what we’ll find, but something of life, in its broadest sense, may be… Now, shall we have a telephone conversation? No.

–I’m curious, do you like movies or science fiction literature?

-Not much. I saw a bit of the movie ‘Interstellar’, but I didn’t finish it. I thought I should like it because physicist Kip Thorne, also a Nobel Prize winner, was a script consultant. But he has a very different opinion than mine. I was recently asked if I would go on a trip inside a black hole if they promised me nothing would happen to me. I said no because I am sure that promise cannot be kept. To the same question, Thorne said yes, sure. He is much more adventurous than me in that sense (laughs).