It was one of the more bizarre situations in the many years that I have moderated ZiB2 and also in my not so few interviews with Sebastian Kurz.
The ex-chancellor came live into the studio yesterday after his first-instance guilty verdict for giving false witness statements in the Ibiza U-Committee. Shortly after Start of conversation I read him the crucial passage from his hearing in the U-Committee and the following – rather strange – dialogue ensued:
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Sebastian Kurz: When I was asked whether I was involved in the selection of the supervisory board members, I said, yes, the judge recognized that, but then he just said that I should have described it in more detail. And in my opinion that’s unfair, we’ll see what the second instance decides.
Armin Wolf: Good. It wasn’t quite like that, the question that was asked of you in the U-Committee…
Kurz: I know it, yes please…
Wolf: I have the protocol here with me.
Kurz: Me too, me too.
Wolf: “Do you have any general perceptions about how the supervisory board was filled? Were you involved yourself?” It’s a double question…
Kurz: And I answer yes.
Wolf: To which you say: “Yes, I know that there were considerations and discussions in the Ministry of Finance and in the responsible nomination committee.”
Kurz: That’s completely wrong, that’s completely wrong. Excuse me!
Wolf: I’ll read this to you from the minutes.
Kurz: No, that’s copied together incorrectly…
Wolf: Sorry, this is the minutes from the Parliament homepage, I downloaded them two hours ago.
Kurz: I can read it to you, that was a different question, it’s a – I’ll read it to you – a thousand percent, Mr. Wolf, we bet? Let’s bet it’s wrong?
Wolf: I don’t know what you’re reading now. That is your statement in the U-Committee.
Kurz: Well, let’s bet it’s wrong?
Wolf: You can bet with me, it’s on the Parliament homepage.
Kurz: I can read it to you. Representative Krisper asked me and you read it completely correctly, the beginning: “Do you have any general perceptions about how the supervisory board was filled? Were you involved yourself?” I answer this question with “Yes”. The judge recognized…
Wolf: And how does it continue?
Kurz: Then I go on to give a general answer, namely…
Wolf: I just read that. That’s exactly what I just read.
Kurz: No, you read something else.
Wolf: No I haven’t.
Kurz: Well, read your part again.
Wolf: “Do you have a general perception of how the supervisory board was filled? Were you involved in this yourself?”
Kurz: And.
Wolf: “Sebastian Kurz: ‘Yes, I know that there were considerations and discussions in the Ministry of Finance and in the responsible nomination committee.'”
And then the paragraph continues…
Kurz: What happens next, what happens next?
Wolf: I can’t read the whole answer now, but you didn’t say anywhere that you were involved.
Kurz: Look, the judge himself acknowledged that I answered the question with yes, so that I, that’s what the judge said – can I just finish it… I then give a very general answer and at the end she interrupts me Rep. Krisper said, “I didn’t ask you about the rule.” And the chairman then interrupts me and says: “Time is up, second round”. That means I didn’t have…
Wolf: That is also wrong, Mr. Kurz. Chairman Sobotka didn’t interrupt you, but Ms. Krisper, and passed it on to the next deputy. And Sobotka explicitly said to you later in the U-Committee: “You” – meaning you – “You have no speaking time, you can talk for as long as you want.”
Kurz: But Mrs. Krisper interrupted me, you can see that in your minutes, that is, let me just say, you have your perception, I have mine.
Wolf: I have minutes from the U-Committee.
Kurz: I have it exactly in front of me.
Wolf: I don’t think so, you simply have two paragraphs copied together, I have the minutes in front of me.
Kurz: No, we have exactly the same thing apparently.
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That was probably rather stressful for the audience, but let’s put it this way: Sebastian Kurz didn’t become betting king yesterday.
The committee minutes are available online, it was about this passage on page 20 below and 21 above. And the passage in which Sobotka points out that there are no limits on speaking time for Kurz can be found at the bottom of page 74.