The war rolled into the middle of Europe: streams of refugees in Germany, rocket attacks just before the Polish border. Anne Will is alarmed: “Attack on Ukraine – how can Putin’s war be ended?”
The guests
Robert Habeck (52, Green). The vice chancellor wants to get out of Putin’s blackmailing energy tongs by the fall.
Dmytro Kuleba (40). The Ukrainian foreign minister is making clear demands on the federal government.
Lars Klingbeil (44). The SPD leader praised Schröder’s propaganda trip to Putin. Radio silence since then. Any info today?
Claudia Major (45). The political scientist warns that Putin’s goal is to establish a vassal state in Ukraine.
Katya Petrovskaya (52). The writer comes from Kyiv and keeps pleading for help for her bleeding homeland.
Roderich Kiesewetter (58). The CDU politician and retired colonel demands: “Tighten sanctions in a targeted manner, increase pressure. Waiting is not an option when it comes to suffering and death!”
Those who understand Putin must stay outside today. The Zoff-o-Meter remains suspicious.
Bitter understatement
“If we take an ill-considered step, we won’t stick to the measures,” warns Habeck on his monitor. “Under no circumstances should we give Putin the triumph that we have to withdraw measures because we can’t get through them.”
But, the Economics Minister continued: “In the case of coal, oil and even gas, we are in the process of becoming independent step by step. Just not right away. It’s bitter, it’s also morally not nice to admit it, but we can’t do that yet.”
Dumbest answer
The talk show host immediately put a needle in the weak point: “To be honest, ‘morally not nice’ doesn’t sound nice given the suffering of the people in Ukraine! That means: You will stick with it, come what may, so that Germany does not immediately impose an energy embargo?”
“In this situation, ‘come what may’ is a phrase that doesn’t work because you just don’t know what’s going to happen,” the minister enthuses. “‘Come what may’ is a phrase that doesn’t work in a situation where red lines are constantly being crossed.” Seriously?
Most Satisfied Statement
“It is wise and consistent that Germany supports the Ukrainian army and the Ukrainian civilian population with its possibilities,” Habeck then adds, “and, in alliance with the Allies, has imposed severe sanctions against the Putin regime.”
His balance sheet: “In the summer we managed to do without coal from Russia, and by the end of the year we will probably have done the same with oil. That is the consequence that the federal government, the companies, that I am working on it.” Boom!
Darkest threat backdrop
“If you flip the switch right now, there will be delivery bottlenecks in Germany, even delivery interruptions,” warns Habeck, “mass unemployment, poverty, people who can no longer heat their homes, people who don’t have petrol have more.”
Regarding the demand by the CDU/CSU to shut down Nord Stream 1, the minister said: “It is not important which pipeline the gas comes through. Going further is the idea that the excess profits, which Gazprom then also achieves, should be subject to greater tariffs or taxes. That’s what the European Union is working on, and that’s what we’re working on.” Uff!
Photo: NDR/Wolfgang Borrs
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Clearest hint with the wallet
“Today the Bild newspaper reported that Christian Lindner had the idea of introducing a tank discount. Is that agreed with you at all?” The talk show host wants to know next.
The minister promptly throws out a medium-heavy media scolding: “When a newspaper demands on the one hand: Make an immediate embargo and on the other hand complains about the high prices, it’s difficult to get it together!” he grumbles. Hm – not even with an energy tax cut?
Coolest colleague reprimand
“People will get extremely high heating bills this year,” predicts Habeck. “But electricity is also expensive, as is refueling, of course.”
“Relief measures must be comprehensive,” he lectures. “They have to be combined with efficiency measures and always need a market-based signal. It must be worth saving. All three measures are not yet shown in Christian Lindner’s catalogue. You can do that a little better there.” Boom!
Most subtle suggestion
The talk show host senses Zoff: “So it wasn’t agreed with you?” she asks.
“Well, there are lots of suggestions on the market,” the minister dismisses. “Everyone is now telling you what makes sense to them. I think it’s wise to sit down, work through everything systematically and then make the right decisions.” Aha. For example in the cabinet?
Hottest question
“Instead of deciding that Germany will no longer participate in financing Putin’s war, exonerate the citizens,” Will snaps. “Is this your answer to the suffering of the people of Ukraine?”
“We have made decisions that no federal government has made in recent decades!”, Habeck protests proudly.
Most amazing explanation
These included arms deliveries and sanctions: “We do a great deal,” claims the minister, “but it is a matter of political wisdom not to do anything that weakens one’s own position to the point that it cannot be sustained in the end. So sawing off the branch you’re sitting on.”
The next question finally got him into a skid: Is Germany really doing everything it can to stop Putin? “It’s true that we don’t do everything,” Habeck replies, to the astonishment of the group.
Because, the minister continued: “There is no ban on exports of Russian wheat or food, i.e. … uh … wheat, or sunflowers, or rapeseed.” Heidewitzka!
Most questionable analysis
“It also seems to me that Putin is following the tsarist empire and trying to pursue territorial politics, to move the borders with means that we only knew from imperialism,” Habeck then explains.
His sobering prognosis: “I don’t see that after Ukraine, if he survives this war, that would stop. That seems to me to be a pattern, and an increasingly irrational pattern as the government ages.”
Most Emotional Complaints
“What else has to happen?” the Ukrainian asks quite desperately afterwards. “Do we need 100,000 dead to say we need to close the skies now and shut down everything we can shut down immediately? The problem is that Putin only understands strength. We will pay more for this war every day if we hesitate!”
“Emotionality is something that also eats away at us politicians,” admits the SPD leader, visibly moved. In a refugee shelter in his constituency, he heard “unbelievable fates”. “Everyone in the government” is “highly emotional”, but “in the end it’s about considering the next step but one.”
Then the Zoff-o-Meter starts
“We have to turn off the money tap for Putin!” demands the CDU colonel. “If Putin turns off the tap, we’ll have to live with it. Why don’t we do it ourselves, already this year?”
The SPD leader chooses a party-tactical counterattack: “With all due respect for colleague Kiesewetter: It is now prime ministers of the Union who are starting to collect signatures on the subject of fuel prices, making selfie videos in front of gas stations…”
“Tobias Hans!” Sneaks the talk show host and says: There will soon be an election in Saarland…
most cautious hope
“With the sanctions, we want to ensure that Russia changes its policy,” notes the political scientist Major. “Ultimately, it’s about who can hold out longer.”
The Russians’ loss of people and material “push Putin to change his position at least a little,” hopes Foreign Minister Kuleba in Kyiv in front of the blue and yellow Ukrainian flag. Despite this, the brutal attacks on civilians would continue unabated – even in the humanitarian corridors.
Main demands
“Germany has contributed to building up Russia’s power,” the minister recalls, without any diplomatic blurring. “We hope you will do your utmost to stop the Russian war machine!”
Kuleba’s most urgent wishes: 1. Support with all necessary weapons. 2. More sanctions, because: “When I ask the EU why this or that sanction hasn’t been introduced yet, they always say: That’s because of Germany!” 3. German help for Ukraine’s admission to the EU.
worst accusation
“A few days ago, our army looked into one of the Russian infantry vehicles and saw that parts of the main components that power this vehicle were actually supplied by Bosch,” reports the minister angrily. The writer puts her hands in front of her face.
The Russians came to Ukraine with German technology “to kill people and destroy cities,” Kuleba complains. “Perhaps now is the time that we are supplied with what we need to defend ourselves!”
Most unexpected counterattack
“In Moldova, Romanians and Poles, arguments are far less despondent than here,” reports Kiesewetter. “We should make demands ourselves: Withdrawal of medium-range missiles from Kaliningrad! Withdrawal of Russian troops from Transnistria! Withdrawal of Russian troops from the partially occupied areas in Georgia!”
His hope: “In the long run, Putin will have to be ready because the pressure on him will be too great. We must take the threats against Moldova or the Baltic states seriously. We need diplomacy and toughness!”
Photo: NDR/Wolfgang Borrs
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Last Stand
“We see the last days of Putin’s power,” hopes the Ukrainian. “We see that a lot is happening in Russia too!”
Finally, Klingbeil is annoyed with a question about his ex-chancellor. “Gerhard Schröder is not on the road on behalf of the SPD, the Federal Republic, the federal government,” he grumbles crossly.
“As I have read, he was asked by the Ukrainian side, but not by us,” adds the SPD leader. The Ukrainian smiles mockingly: In the East, no one has fallen for the disinformation tricks of the Kremlin and its supporters for a long time.
quote of the evening
“Not everything that comes to mind is also smart politics.” Robert Habeck
Conclusion
Statements full of commitment and emotions, but unclear solutions and on the German side more doubts than dare: That was a talk show in the “hardness test” category.