2023-10-16 09:07:43
by Lorenzo Cremonesi
Interview with Israeli historian Tom Segev: «We have the means to defend ourselves and we haven’t used them: it’s very serious»
FROM OUR CORRESPONDENT
JERUSALEM — «Benjamin Netanyahu is politically dead. But he could perhaps save himself if in the end he could demonstrate that he solved the problem of Gaza by expelling his more than two million Palestinian inhabitants abroad. He must do something so dramatic and extreme that most Israelis will forget how catastrophic and inept his government has been in the face of Hamas’ terrifying attack on our population.” In his own scathing style, Israeli historian and commentator Tom Segev provides his take on the situation. According to him, the events of the last week lay bare the most sensitive chords of the decades of history of the conflict between Jews and Arabs in the Middle East: in particular, for some the legacy of the Holocaust, the Shoah, and for others the Nakba, the expulsion of Arabs from their lands.
The prime minister’s most serious mistake?
«Believing that we can coexist with Hamas, working to weaken the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank in the name of the principle of divide and conquer. They let the enormous arsenal of missiles in the hands of Hamas grow.”
How do you see the continuous reminder of the Shoah among Israelis?
«The Holocaust remains the central element of Israeli identity. Sometimes it is difficult to distinguish between genuine feelings or political manipulation. But three key moves by our state were in reaction to the Holocaust: the choice to bring over a million Jews here immediately after its birth in 1948; the construction of the atomic bomb in the 1960s and the decision to launch a preventive attack against the Arab armies in June 1967. A nightmare: losing the war is synonymous with the next Holocaust. Our leaders have in turn compared Arab leaders to Hitler. And this also applies to domestic politics: the assassinated former prime minister Yitzhak Rabin was accused by the Israeli right of being a traitor kapo because he wanted a compromise with Yasser Arafat. However, we must remember that much of this is authentic. There are Holocaust survivors or their direct descendants among the civilians kidnapped or murdered by Hamas.”
There are also those who say that today Israel is strong and armed…
«Of course, and then the error, the lack of understanding of the enemy, becomes evident. Many of our commentators talk about this: we have the means to defend ourselves and we have not used them. Very serious.”
The latest news on the war between Israel and Hamas, live
And the Nakba?
«I reject any parallel. I have not studied Palestinian perception. I can say that since its origins the Zionist movement has never even thought about the extermination of the Palestinians. It is true, however, that the idea of expelling the Arabs to guarantee our state has been constant: not necessarily all of them, but a good part of them from a territory that must be as large as possible and have the maximum number of Jews. David Ben Gurion was already thinking about it in the mid-1930s when he read British Minister Peel’s plan for the partition of Palestine.”
Is it Gaza?
«It has always been a problem. From the 1950s to today, people would like to close it, isolate it and forget it. Ariel Sharon, after the withdrawal of the Jewish colonies in 2005, said that he wanted to block the doors and throw the keys into the sea. After the 1967 victory, our government sent hundreds of buses to transport the population abroad, both from Jerusalem to Jordan and from Gaza to Egypt. But almost no one moved. At the end of the 1970s Egypt took back the Sinai in exchange for peace, but very intelligently it did not want Gaza and we happily agreed to sign the peace after the 1973 war.”
Is the Nakba possible?
«We are in an extreme moment. The Hamas massacre was too serious. It strikes me that Israel appears ready to sacrifice hostages in order to strike Hamas. And the mass expulsion of Palestinians is truly in the ideology of this government: Netanyahu could become popular again.”
October 16, 2023 (modified October 16, 2023 | 09:38)
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