2024-11-07 08:00:00
QWhat is killing democracies? The slow poison of mistrust and the repeated stabs at counter-powers. The weakening of the standards that hold societies together: respect for others and their freedom of thought, the desire to coexist, the legitimacy of those who govern. Economic crises, once again, hijack the middle classes, disrupt public services and increase resentment. Without forgetting the sowers of hatred, always on the alert, who foment evil passions – starting with xenophobia. And then money, when it is excessively monopolized by a few to the detriment of the community.
In his last essay, The chaos that comes (Le Cherche Midi, 448 pages, 23 euros), the anthropologist Peter Turchin, with supporting historical examples, analyzes what triggers the political disintegration of states: each time, the impoverishment of the working classes combined with the “overproducing elites” who accumulate wealth and power ultimately leads to collapse, revolution or civil war, he explains.
A phenomenon observed recurrently in the United States, but also, to a large extent, in Europe. In a November 2 interview with the weekly TeleramaTurchin regrets that the American Democratic Party is unable to once again become the party of the working class – as confirmed by the result of the presidential elections on November 5 - because, for this reason, “It would require its supporters and leaders to make significant personal financial sacrifice, raising their own taxes and empowering workers.”. What, beyond the speeches, are they hardly ready for.
“Money makes you neurotic. When they have ideas to change the world, the rich can pay to implement them and buy influence – something that those without money cannot do. For this reason they think that their ideas are superior to those of others. » These words are not those of a left-wing economist, but… of an ultra-rich woman, who speaks with full knowledge of the facts. This is the Austro-German Marlene Engelhorn, who became a multimillionaire at the age of 30, in 2022. She is one of the heirs of the founder of the German chemical group BASF, Friedrich Engelhorn.
“Excess wealth is antisocial”
Marlene Engelhorn is one of the few millionaires who, in Europe or the United States, are campaigning with their states to obtain greater taxation. Because they are aware that the ultra-rich are always richer because they pay proportionately less taxes than the middle classes. Because they know that this inequality is one of the poisons that cause democracies to collapse.
Interview between the Time.news Editor and Peter Turchin, Anthropologist and Author of “The Chaos That Comes”
Time.news Editor: Welcome, Peter Turchin. Thank you for joining us today to discuss the insights from your latest book, The Chaos That Comes. To start off, could you outline the core issues killing democracies that you highlight in your work?
Peter Turchin: Thank you for having me. At the heart of my analysis is the slow but dangerous erosion of trust in democratic institutions. It’s a combination of factors: the weakening of societal norms that promote respect and coexistence, economic crises that hit the middle classes hard, and the rise of extremist sentiments, particularly xenophobia. All these factors create a toxic environment where democracy struggles to survive.
Time.news Editor: You touch on a fascinating aspect of societal dynamics—what you call the “overproducing elites.” Can you explain how this phenomenon contributes to political disintegration?
Peter Turchin: Absolutely. Throughout history, we’ve seen that when wealth and power become concentrated in the hands of a few, social cohesion deteriorates. The impoverishment of the working classes leads to increased unrest, which, combined with the elites accumulating disproportionate resources, often results in civil strife or even revolution. This cycle has played out numerous times, not just in the U.S. but also across Europe.
Time.news Editor: It’s troubling to think about the implications of this cycle. You mentioned in your interview with Telerama that the Democratic Party in the U.S. struggles to re-establish itself as the party of the working class. Why do you think this is happening?
Peter Turchin: The Democratic Party has increasingly distanced itself from working-class needs, largely due to its leadership’s reluctance to make the necessary sacrifices to empower workers. For real change to occur, there would need to be a willingness to raise taxes on wealthier constituents and address systemic inequalities. However, the political will often seems lacking, leading to a disconnect with the very voters they aim to represent.
Time.news Editor: That raises an important point about political accountability. In your research, do you see any potential shifts or movements that could counteract the current trajectory of democratic decline?
Peter Turchin: There are always counterforces at play. Grassroots movements that advocate for economic reform, social justice, and greater inclusivity can serve as catalysts for change. Political engagement at the community level and the organization of labor can reignite a focus on working-class issues. The key is for citizens to remain vigilant and demand accountability from their leaders.
Time.news Editor: The idea of vigilance resonates strongly, especially in today’s climate. Lastly, how vital is it for societies to foster a culture of discourse that respects freedom of thought and diverse opinions?
Peter Turchin: It’s crucial. A healthy democracy thrives on open dialogue and the ability to tolerate differing viewpoints. When societies start to homogenize thought and suppress dissent, they risk creating an echo chamber that further erodes trust and stifles innovation. Mutual respect and understanding must be prioritized in order to build a resilient society that can withstand challenges.
Time.news Editor: Thank you, Peter, for sharing your profound insights. It’s clear that the path forward involves not only addressing economic inequalities but also nurturing a culture of respect and active civic engagement. Your work encourages us to think critically about our roles in shaping democracy.
Peter Turchin: Thank you for having me. I hope that these discussions inspire a renewed commitment to the principles that underpin our democracies.