2023-07-24 13:22:57
Tel Aviv/ Washington. Israel may have a special relationship with the United States, but the state does not want to rely on Washington when it comes to its own security. Michael Oren (68), one of Israel’s top diplomats, told Europeans in the second part of his interview with eXXpress. “Increase your defense investments, do not trust the USA” gives advice.
In an interview with eXXpress, Michael Oren says he suspects that the anti-Israel wing among the Democrats in the US will get stronger. What this means for Israel’s relations with Washington, why the United States will enter a new phase of isolationism, and why it would be better for Europe not to rely on Washington for its own security, the peace agreement with the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain. He explains why it is a turning point in the Middle East and what internal challenges Israel will face in the next 25 years: Senior diplomat, successful book author and historian Oren explains all this in the second part of his eXXpress interview.
Former Israeli Ambassador to the United States Michael Oren
The details of this striking interview with eXXpress by former Israeli Ambassador to the USA Michael Oren are as follows:
“We have political differences, especially with the Democrats”.
US President Joe Biden doesn’t seem to get along very well with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Is the problem just judicial reform or are there other challenges?
I know Joe Biden very well from my time in Washington. I know you are pro-Israel. He loves this country, is very close to the American Jewish community, and I have no doubts about his commitment to our security. But Joe Biden is a Democrat and we have policy differences with the Democratic Party – not exclusively, but specifically. There is a progressive wing in Biden’s party that criticizes us a lot and criticizes him for not doing enough about Israel. Biden will run for a second term in 2024 and fears that the progressive wing will nominate his own candidate and get votes for him. This is another reason why he is critical of Israel.
My gut tells me that the real problem is not judicial reform, but the existence of racist and right-wing extremists in the Israeli government, such as Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich, who advocate violence against Palestinians. From the point of view of the White House, this is unacceptable.
‘Progressives likely to gain influence’
You mentioned the progressives in the Democratic Party, whose ranks are receiving unusually harsh criticism of Israel. Could the growing anti-Israeli trend carried by progressives and possibly Islamists affect Israel’s relations with the United States?
This has had an impact on relationships but not huge right now. The progressive wing of the Democratic Party was very small ten years ago and feared Barack Obama. Today this wing is no longer small. It is very loud, not afraid of anyone and makes its voice heard. I think it will get stronger and more effective over time. This is already noticeable. As I said before, Joe Biden has to be very careful with this wing. This is one of the reasons why he voices his criticism of Israel so loudly.
How can Israel overcome this challenge?
There are many currents and trends in the United States over which Israel has no control. We did not invent wokism, we did not invent political correctness. However, in a sense, we are the addressee of many of these currents. We must be humble about what we think we can achieve. The best we can do is explain our positions. We hope that many people will come to Israel and see that the reality is very different from what is written about us in the media.
“The Abrahamic Treaty destroyed all assumptions about peacebuilding”.
In 2020, Israel, Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) normalized their relations by signing the Abraham Agreements Declaration. Will the Abraham Agreement change the political dynamics in the Middle East?
Definitely. This was a turning point. It changed the way we make peace. It used to be thought that in order to make peace, you first had to establish a Palestinian state, repartition Jerusalem, withdraw to the 1967 borders, and displace hundreds of thousands of Israelis. This is not true. Now we made peace without doing any of this. Moreover, the assumption was: first you make peace and then you achieve normalization. That was the model with Egypt and Jordan. However, with the Abraham Agreement, we first normalized relations and then made peace. Thus, all assumptions about making peace in the Middle East were destroyed and a new paradigm was established. Of course, these agreements may still be in jeopardy if Israel is careless and does not rein in some radical elements in society.
“Saudi Arabia would probably want to participate”.
More countries can join. I guess that’s your hope?
Definitely. I don’t think the UAE and Bahrain will join without the green light from Saudi Arabia. I think Saudi Arabia would also like to join, but it is very difficult for them because of our policy towards Palestinians.
Israel is not part of NATO. Wouldn’t membership make sense for Israel?
I don’t think Israel wants to be a NATO member and send its forces to protect, for example, Lithuania in the event of a Russian attack. We have a very close relationship with NATO. However, we can defend ourselves alone, and our hands are tied in this regard.
“Those who don’t invest enough in defense have to rely on outside power”
Former Prime Minister Naftali Bennett told President Volodymyr Selenskyj shortly after the invasion of Russia: It would be best if Ukraine could defend itself and not have to rely on the United States and other NATO countries. But this is clearly what Europe has been doing for the last 20 years. Can European states become more militarily dependent on the United States, although unlike Israel, they do not have a special relationship with the United States? Unlike Europe, Israel seems to be of the view that at the end of the day it has to defend itself.
Of course. For example, Germany spends about 1.2 percent of its GDP on defense. For Americans, the ratio is much higher, and in Israel we spend more than 6 percent of our GDP on defense. If you are not ready to invest in defense, then you cannot defend yourself. You have to rely on an outside force, in this case the USA. In Israel, we do not want to trust the USA, we want to be able to defend ourselves on our own.
So is Europe now more dependent on the USA than on Israel?
Europe is currently dealing with a slightly larger enemy – Russia. On the other hand, Israel does not face a conventional threat. We face an unconventional Iranian and Arab threat. One thing is certain: we will defend ourselves.
“The USA no longer wants to be the police of the world and is withdrawing”.
Can European politicians learn from Israel’s relations with the United States?
(laughs) I don’t know if I can answer that question. I think European states need to increase their defense investments in the long run, because the US is going through a phase of isolationism and many Americans no longer want to be the police of the world. I am confident that US support for Ukraine will be an issue in the 2024 elections and candidates will question the level of US funding for Ukraine.
When I came back from Washington ten years ago, I had a message to Israeli politicians: the America we remember, the America of Reagan, Clinton and George Bush, that America is gone. America only thinks of itself now. It is withdrawing from the Middle East, withdrawing from many parts of the world. This isn’t the worst news. The fact that Israel is a much stronger country today and that we can stand on our own feet does not mean that America will still not be our most important ally. But this alliance will be in a different form. Europeans should be clear about this: America will not always be the same. In short, Europeans need to increase their defense spending.
„Ultra-Orthodox schoolchildren should also receive a modern education in the future“.
Israel has to defend itself. But there is a growing population – ultra-Orthodox Jews – who do not want to serve in the military. This group is growing rapidly and imposes high costs on taxpayers. „2048. You wrote about this subject in your book titled “The Rejuvenating State”. Is this a big challenge for Israel and how should it be dealt with?
This is certainly a big challenge for Israel, but mainly because ultra-Orthodox does not want to serve in the military, but because they do not educate their children to integrate into the economy. In most ultra-Orthodox schools, children receive an education in math and English that does not go beyond second grade. These young people cannot participate in a high-tech, developed economy after graduation. In my book, I wrote a vision of Israel’s future for the year 2048, our 100th birthday. That year, half of the schoolchildren in the State of Israel will be ultra-Orthodox. If these children cannot participate in the economy, the country itself will not be sustainable. People will not pay for it, and those who can will leave Israel. We must solve this problem through education, by ensuring that ultra-Orthodox students receive the same modern education as other Israelis.
This is not currently happening.
No, unfortunately it doesn’t. The current government has given too much money to ultra-Orthodox schools so they cannot provide that education to their children.
“Arab Israelis and Arab Jews will have to work together”.
Another group in Israel is the Arabic-speaking population, currently represented by a party in the Knesset. Has Israel’s policy neglected this group? What should be done for them and their integration?
My book is in English, Hebrew and Arabic in the middle. This was intentional because 21 percent of our population speaks Arabic. This is an extremely complex subject. On the one hand, we must fight discrimination in the workplace, in the classroom and in all other places. On the other hand, we must maintain the loyalty of our population. There are many examples of nation-states where non-national minorities are very loyal. I call it the New Deal. Many Arab politicians I met in the Knesset have always opposed the occupation but did little for their communities in terms of education, infrastructure or job opportunities. I think the future lies in cooperation between Arab Israelis and Arab Jews, because we live together in this country. We share a common destiny, we should be proud of this country. And we are in very good shape compared to other countries in the Middle East.
However, we still have a lot to improve. There will always be difficulties. After all, we are in the Middle East…
Michael Oren was born in 1955 in New York. Israeli diplomat, famous historian and author of books is a politician from the Kulano party, which is located in the political center today. He emigrated from the United States to Israel in 1979. He was appointed Israel’s Ambassador to the United States in July 2009 and remained in that position until 2013. He has been a member of the Knesset since 2015. He has written many bestselling and standard works on Israel and the Middle East.
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