2023-09-16 08:25:00
UNESCO was supposed to meet in June 2022 in Russia. Due to the war in Ukraine, the meeting was canceled. The 45th session of UNESCO is taking place these days – from 10 to 25 September 2023 – in Riyadh. That is, now in Saudi Arabia they are making decisions on including certain objects on the UNESCO World Heritage List.
The meeting can already be called historic. There are many reasons. One of them is the fact that an Israeli delegation arrived in Saudi Arabia for the first time on an official visit.
The focus of the session remains, of course, Ukraine and Russia. Before the start of the meetings in Riyadh, the President of the German Commission for UNESCO, Maria Böhmer, made a statement. “I am very concerned about the situation in Ukraine, where Russia continues to attack people, the cultural heritage and the identity of the country associated with it,” she emphasized.
DW met with the Secretary General of the German UNESCO Commission, Roman Luckscheiter. During the recording of this interview, it became known that on September 15, the World Organization UNESCO decided to include the St. Sophia Cathedral and monastic buildings in Kiev, as well as the historical center of Lviv, on the list of World Heritage sites that are in danger of destruction – due to Russia’s war in Ukraine.
From Russia this year there are two applications for inclusion in the UNESCO World Heritage List: the historical center of the city of Gorokhovets and the astronomical observatories of Kazan University.
DW: Mr. Lukscheiter, this session was originally supposed to take place in Kazan, but it was moved to Riyadh. Considering the civil war in Yemen, which is often framed as a proxy war between Riyadh and Tehran, the question arises: is this the right message?
Roman Lukscheiter: The fact that the committee meeting could not take place in Russia has a long history. Due to Russia’s brutal war of aggression against Ukraine, there was much discussion, many doubts arose and, in the end, Russia abandoned its chairmanship. So it was decided to hold it in the next country in line. And this is Saudi Arabia.
– So just in alphabetical order?
– This is a purely technical decision.
– Why is Russia even represented in this session, given the fact that the war continues in Ukraine and Russia itself has refused to chair it?
– Such applications have a long history and their own dynamics. If we take Erfurt, the application from Germany, then it is already 15 years old. The Committee decides on cultural properties that should receive World Heritage status. World Heritage is, above all, something very special, transcending political and national boundaries. This is why the convention was created, which is why committee meetings are held. If any member state is currently flouting the convention, as Russia is doing now, specifically jeopardizing world heritage, then this is one aspect. Another point is that the World Organization has to ensure that the mechanisms of the program itself continue to function.
– Following the Russian attacks on World Heritage sites in Lviv and Odessa, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine appealed to UNESCO, the parliaments and governments of its member states with a request to deprive Russia of membership in the organization. How realistic are these requirements?
– It is important that UNESCO remains a world organization in which all member states communicate and exchange ideas on current issues of culture, education and science, and work on standards that they then commit to complying with. In this regard, the question of exclusion or non-exclusion should perhaps be posed differently: how, in principle, can a world organization react in a situation where member states violate conventions that they have ratified? We need such forums to draw attention to this. Another solution could be to remove the right to vote in committees – this would send a signal to those countries whose actions contradict the spirit of UNESCO.
– So, in this situation, Russia would lose the right to vote?
– Then Russia, in this case as a member of the World Heritage Committee, would not have the right to vote at meetings where the World Heritage is under threat due to Russian attacks.
– But this didn’t happen in 2023?
– No, our Russian colleagues meet in Riyadh. This is just an option that should be discussed.
– On the eve of the session in Saudi Arabia, deputies of the State Duma of the Russian Federation proposed to consider the possibility of the Russian Federation withdrawing from UNESCO. Russian journalist and Deputy Speaker of the State Duma Pyotr Tolstoy in his Telegram channel questioned the advisability of continuing cooperation with organizations such as UNESCO. “So, are we going to listen to their opinion? Do we even need membership in this kind of politicized organization?” – a Russian official wrote on September 7. How realistic is the scenario in which Russia leaves UNESCO on its own initiative? And how quickly can this happen?
– I don’t presume to judge how realistic this is.
The German UNESCO Commission is located in BonnPhoto: Christoph Hardt/Panama Pictures/picture alliance
– The US withdrawal under President Trump had its own dynamics and reasons. The return also depends, first of all, on the desire of the new government to play a different role in the world community than before…
– If you look at the budget and what share the respective countries have, then American participation is completely different. The US is a major donor to UNESCO, and US returns are important. Russia cannot in any way be compared in terms of budget share with America. Yes, we are talking about several million. What can be said for sure: Russia is inferior to Germany in this regard.
– The United States also left UNESCO in 1984, then under US President Ronald Reagan. This, too, was a purely ideological “punishment,” and the point of contention at that time was supposedly pro-Soviet sympathies. In 2002, George W. Bush returned the United States to the UNESCO community. Under Trump there is a new round. But let’s return to Russia. What would you remind your colleagues, politicians and society in the Russian Federation?
– I think it is very important to distinguish between the political level, which is also in UNESCO, and the level of civil society, which UNESCO also addresses. We talked today about World Heritage. But there is also a whole series of programs: these are tools with the help of which the basic idea, the values of UNESCO, the idea of peace and the goals that should lead to it through education, culture and science, penetrate into society. And individual members of civil society have the opportunity, through UNESCO and its programs, to feel part of the global community. And this is a very important point, because especially during war, solidarity with countries in distress is needed. It is important that UNESCO Member States make their commitments and fulfill them. It is important to know that UNESCO has a political level, but the spirit of UNESCO is much broader.
– If Russia leaves UNESCO on its own initiative, what will this mean?
– Leaving the organization is, of course, not a gain. This is a loss of voice in resolving important issues. The task of the world community, no matter how difficult coexistence may be, is to not stop in the process of achieving the goals for which it once united.
– And the last question, but no less important. What happens if Germany’s bid wins and Erfurt is added to the World Heritage List?
– If Erfurt is included in the World Heritage List, it will be incredibly good news and a great success, rewarding those who prepared the application and recognizing the city’s importance as a center of medieval Jewish monuments in a historically preserved old town. Here you can see the coexistence that reigned there in the Middle Ages. And this is where it becomes apparent that Jewish communal life in Germany goes back over 1,000 years.
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