He knows Russia’s President Vladimir Putin (69) personally and met him when he was Foreign Minister in Moscow. Today, Sigmar Gabriel (62, SPD) is head of the German-American Atlantic Bridge and knows how the US really thinks about Germany’s course in the Ukraine conflict.
BILD am SONNTAG: Will there be war in Ukraine, in Europe?
Sigmar Gabriel: “I hope not and all the efforts of the USA, NATO and Europe are aimed at preventing precisely this war in the middle of Europe. But if we are honest, then we have to admit that for years the military conflicts in eastern Ukraine, in which Russia is involved, have not stopped. What would be needed there is an international UN peacekeeping mission that robustly enforces the ceasefire, the withdrawal of heavy weapons and the end of all violence there – if necessary with weapons. There have been suggestions, but never any serious discussion about it.”
Is the federal government protecting Ukraine resolutely enough?
Gabriel: “The federal government – like all other European members of NATO and the EU – is involved in all efforts by the USA to contain the conflict. However, we Europeans have to admit that we do not play a really decisive role in solving the threat of war. Once again we depend on the USA. From Russia’s point of view, Europe does not matter because in 1945, 1989 and 1997 the Soviet Union and later Russia always negotiated with the USA over the fate of Europe. From a Russian point of view, it should stay that way. And we Europeans are doing everything we can to confirm that, because we are divided and afraid. For us Europeans, that is a sign of poverty. And who is to tell us that the next US President will still be prepared to look after European interests?”
Do the Americans still take us seriously?
Gabriel: “The USA has long been looking far more towards the Indo-Pacific than towards the Atlantic. The question is: where is the European Union, which supposedly wanted to become “sovereign” and a “geopolitical actor”? We disagree on the assessment of the situation in Ukraine, we fear for our economic interests and we are glad that others are pulling the hot potatoes out of the fire for us. We Europeans must learn to take our interests into our own hands.”
What role do Germany and France play in this?
Gabriel: “Paris and Berlin must now play their leading role. If possible, always in partnership with the USA, but also alone if necessary. To do this, however, we must show that we value peace. Anyone who breaks the peace in Europe must know that he has to pay a high price. For now, we are leaving the price tags of war in Europe to the Americans. I find that shameful.”
Can German weapons help keep Putin in check?
Gabriel: “But the question is different: Does Ukraine have the right to self-defense against a possible military attack? The answer is: YES! So, do we want to help Ukraine defend itself? We Germans are actually against arms deliveries to crisis areas for good reason, because we are concerned that this will fuel conflicts rather than pacify them. But we have already made different decisions: for example with the Kurdish units in Iraq to stop the murder of Yazidis. The truth is, there’s always something to be found guilty of in arms shipments — by action and by inaction. What we now need in Ukraine is a discussion without taboos and bans on thinking in public and in the Bundestag. But also without outside interference.”
Germany’s hesitant attitude has been sharply criticized by the US in particular – what do Scholz and Baerbock have to do to save our reputation?
Gabriel: “Germany must not allow any ambiguity. I’m sure the federal government knows that.”
Shouldn’t the Nord Stream 2 project have been buried long ago because it makes us vulnerable to blackmail?
Gabriel: “Everyone knows that Russia’s military attacks on Ukraine would be the death knell for Nord Stream 2. But if you want to negotiate with Russia, then you have to leave as much as possible on the table and ‘bury’ as little as possible beforehand.”
