2023-06-05 13:04:51
BarcelonaJason Hickel’s speech drew loud applause last month in Brussels during the conference Beyond growth, organized by the European Parliament. This economic anthropologist has published Less is more (Captain Swing), where he explains in detail what degrowth consists of, an economic theory that is gaining traction, he says, not only among scientists.
How do you define decline?
— The decline is part of a wider transformation, which aims to reorganize our productive capacity around the improvement of social and ecological well-being; guarantee universal access to public services and a public guarantee of employment in renewable energies or public transport, the sectors we really need, and reduce less necessary forms of production. In the midst of an ecological emergency, we shouldn’t be producing SUVs and private jets and fast fashion. There are large parts of our economy that are irrelevant to human well-being and we should reduce them.
But who decides what is irrelevant to human well-being?
— It must be a mixture of the information we have from science and the democratic contribution. Right now there is no democracy in the economic system. The economy is controlled by capital, and decisions about what to produce and how to use resources are made by large corporations and financial firms: the 1% that own most of the investable assets. And their only goal is to maximize profits. As a result, we produce SUV cars and industrial beef quickly because they are very profitable. But there is no production of public transport and renewable energy and affordable housing, because they are not profitable.
It is necessary to reduce the production of meat or ‘fast fashion’ and give public guarantees of employment to the really necessary sectors”
Jason Hickel Economic anthropologist and author of ‘Less is more’
Maybe there is demand for SUVs and meat. And if people want it?
— Demand is created through advertising or avoiding other options. People want public transportation and affordable housing, but it’s not happening. I don’t buy the argument that this is demand driven. We know from science that there are sectors that consume a lot of energy and do not improve human well-being, and some are particularly destructive, such as beef: it occupies 60% of the world’s agricultural land and provides 2% of calories. Another key part of the decline is the class dimension: the rich are overwhelmingly responsible for excess energy and resources. Degrowth requires a sharp reduction in the excess purchasing power of the rich.
I nor is green growth possible?
— On a global scale we must reduce emissions to zero and fast enough to not rise above 1.5 ºC. This will not be possible if we do not reduce energy consumption, the same Intergovernmental Organization on Climate Change (IPCC) says so.
How does all this apply in practice: if you were in government how would you do it?
— First social policy, then ecological policy. The first thing I would do is implement universal public services: decommoditize all the basic goods and services that people need to live. Everyone must be guaranteed education, healthcare, but also affordable housing, public transport, access to sufficient energy and water, nutritious food and the internet. This is how we decouple human well-being from growth. The second thing is a labor guarantee: mobilizing labor around socially and ecologically necessary production. The decision about which sectors should be reduced should be made democratically. The current approach is that all sectors must grow constantly, regardless of whether we really need them or not. And this is clearly irrational at any time, but especially during an ecological emergency, it is senseless and dangerous.
Degrowth requires a sharp reduction in the excess purchasing power of the rich”
Jason Hickel Anthropological economist and author of ‘Less is more’
And how is all this paid for if the economy does not grow?
— People make the mistake of thinking that you need to have GDP growth in the private sector to finance public services. But it doesn’t work that way. Taxation is simply to reduce excess demand and prevent inflation. The government issues currency to finance public services. It is necessary to mobilize public finances in this direction. There are now limits on the deficit, but they are artificial and Brussels can change them.
It sounds a bit utopian. How will you tell corporate managers to cut back on production?
— With the job guarantee: if you set a job guarantee in important sectors (transportation, ecosystem restoration) and that attracts Zara staff, it’s Zara’s problem. Even within the industry, there is agreement that fast fashion is out of control. Another is the meat sector. It must be reduced, but for rural communities it must not be understood as the problem, but as the solution. The public guarantee of employment would give farmers an outlet in ecologically important forms of production, such as agroecology or restoration.
But when it says guaranteed jobs, who hires? The state?
— The scheme must be paid for by the issuer of the currency: the government must finance it. But it should be managed at the appropriate local level and governed democratically. Let the communities decide what kind of production they need. Some projects require a national lens, such as transport or the power grid, but most should come from local communities. Or private, but democratic companies.
Saying that all sectors must grow in the midst of an ecological emergency is dangerous”
Jason Hickel Economic anthropologist and author of ‘Less is more’
He says in his book that the ecological crisis has been caused by capitalism.
– Clearly. In the scientific literature this is very clear and the term is no longer being used anthropocene to say capitalocè. Why say anthropocene it means that all people are equally responsible for the crisis. But this is not true. People in the Global South have contributed almost nothing to the crisis.
Would you define yourself as anti-capitalist?
– Definitely. Any reasonable person would be. Capitalism is an old system and clearly unable to address basic social needs, and it is not dealing with the ecological crisis. People will say, “It’s too radical to think about post-capitalism.” I do not agree. We value innovation and creative thinking: why can’t we come up with something better in the economic system? This is a conversation scientists are having. And they are very popular ideas according to polls, with 60% to 80% support. Brussels is talking about it, because they realize that the current system is failing.
Scientists are already debating post-capitalism”
Jason Hickel Economic anthropologist and author of ‘Less is more’
#anthropocene #capitalocene