2023-11-15 07:52:06
Jacopo Galli and Mattia Bertin are two Italian researchers who are experts in urban destruction: the one that occurs when there is a war or a hurricane passes through. His opinion is that, however different they may seem, both types of events will be increasingly linked due to the climate change and the lack of resources to adapt to it. By extension, they also study reconstruction. Is it worth rebuilding areas where material damage occurs every time it rains? Can cities be built today with the logic of the past? Are we investing European funds well?
Galli and Bertin attend El Periódico de España, from the Prensa Ibérica group, after attending a debate about their two books —Cities Under Pressure: a strategy for urban reconstruction y The impact of covid on cities— at the Polytechnic University of Madrid.
What is a destructive event? Is it a natural disaster, a war or could it also be tourism, which destroys cities in its own way?
Mattia Bertin: Good question. First of all, I do not believe that natural disasters exist: disasters are a condemnation of how we build. Now we have many more extreme events. Other destructions, such as wars and violent conflicts, have sociopolitical and religious origins. Tourism is a slower phenomenon. It has to do with the impact of industry on cities since the mid-19th century. It is a conflict that degenerates the city, but due to economic evolution rather than catastrophe.
We have seen the destruction of Ukrainian cities live; Now we see that of the Gaza Strip. What will be the reconstruction phases? How will it change compared to the reconstructions made after World War II?
Jacopo Galli: The current destruction is not the same as that of World War II. We think of the images of Guernica and Stalingrad, but their dimension is now much greater. What we intend to say with the book is that we have to think of new solutions, because those that were used after the Second World War are not going to work: they were built on small cities that were, above all, historic centers. Now the destruction occurs in cities with very low urban quality. They will have a greater degree of transformation. In Ukraine, ten-story Soviet buildings are being destroyed and will not be rebuilt. You have to think of different solutions.
For example? How do you rebuild a city when the country is still at war?
J.G: We can learn from history. The reconstruction plan for London was made in 1943. The war was half over. You can start immediately. Architecture and planning take time, but you can start with an open plan and the reconstruction of small elements. There are parts around kyiv completely destroyed that can now be rebuilt.
M. B: And we cannot think that technology will solve all problems. The effects of geology, hydrology and the natural transformation of the Earth accelerated by climate change will have to be taken into account. You can’t move a river around for industrial needs.
In Spain there are hundreds of thousands of homes built in flood-prone areas, too close to or on river beds. Should they be destroyed? On a political level, is it feasible to say: either we destroy this, or every time it rains it will flood and people will be left homeless?
M. B: Absolutely. It’s simple: we are not going to have money to renew damaged assets so often. If there are houses in rivers, as happens throughout the Mediterranean, and the frequency and intensity of flooding is going to be greater, we will not have the resources to manage it.
J. G: Controlling climate change cannot be just defensive. In some places it will be disruptive, it will change the entire territory. There are climatologists who say that certain areas will not be habitable. Many areas of Italy and Spain will be different because current conditions will not be maintained. The time between one disaster and another is reduced: rebuilding makes no sense.
Extreme events are becoming more and more common. In Madrid the wind recently caused hundreds of trees to fall, one of which killed a young woman. Are there any interesting strategies that are being applied in European cities? I seem to remember that in Paris they are going to remove up to 40% of the asphalt.
M. B: Climate change will not be a problem for nature, but for humanity. This planet has survived many changes. The problem is with human life as we understand it now. There is a conflict between a natural system that is going in one direction—because of humans—and human life.
If the starting point is that we care about life, because we are more worried about a girl dying than about 200 trees falling, we have to transform the spaces where we live, because these phenomena will increase. Risk is made up of dangerousness (climate change), vulnerability (how we build) and exposure (the value we place on people and things). We place a lot of value on people and things and the danger increases, so vulnerability must decrease.
Is there anything that can be done that is not being done? Beyond removing asphalt and putting vegetation…
J. G: Is not easy. The way of managing the heat of the current city is wrong. The ancient city did not have advanced and sustainable materials and its heat management was much better. The first thing to change is the construction rules. If we now wanted to make a city with the Cerdá Plan, we would not be able to because the rules do not allow it. Those models have value, why do the rules allow them? It is a big urban problem.
M. B: We must rely on less rigid rules. Set objectives and let the architect, urban planner and politician discuss the vision, rather than holding on to fixed rules.
We mentioned before that destruction can also be social. Sometimes it ends in war, but is inequality another example of destruction?
J. G: Inequality is destruction. There are many studies that say that, beyond a certain level of inequality, society does not exist: it is just a group of people. Inequality is increasing around the world and city development has a lot of impact on it. We know that the destruction of a war and an earthquake are very similar. But the destruction of the social level is different. For our part, we can work on spatial type tools. In many places, reconstruction has facilitated conflict. There are areas of the world where there is conflict every twenty or thirty years. And every time it is destroyed, it is rebuilt and there is another conflict. It means that reconstruction did not allow peace.
M. B: The conflict between Israel and Palestine is fueled by the organization of the territory. The physical transformation of a space can lead to the inability to move, relate or work, which causes conflicts with destructive effects, not only in the community you are facing, but in your own community. If we think about the ‘banlieu’ of Paris, we find traces of the same management. The exclusion is socio-administrative.
In Spain there is a lot of talk about urban borders and how certain infrastructures create income barriers. To what extent are these barriers intentional? Are there people interested in segregation?
M. B: A professor said that the urban planner’s job is to draw a line: on one side people get richer; to the other, poorer. So with the line you can generate more equality or inequality.
J. G: There are times when segregation is intentional. Others don’t. But climate change is going to increase it. There are those who say that the Syrian conflict is already a conflict over water and natural resources. It is becoming increasingly difficult to decide where to put the line, because the possibility of segregation is increasing.
Mattia, your book is about covid. At that time there was talk about how everything was going to change; However, my feeling is that there was no such destruction and we have returned to the same thing as before…
M. B: In fact, my chapter is titled We have not understood anything. The pandemic brought very interesting solutions that can be used in the face of climate change or conflicts. But I think that, despite the European Next Generation funds and the national plans, we remain the same in the face of climate change. We are going to solve small situations and we are going to end up even worse, because we will have the same or worse problems with fewer resources. We will have spent a lot of public money on works that consider what exists as an objective and eternal fact. Houses on rivers, the form of private property… We will fail in preparation, we will face with less money and less willingness to change.
What do you mean by private property?
M. B: Imagine a block in Madrid where the property is divided among forty neighbors. It is necessary to reduce the impact of heat and water or increase common spaces… And it cannot be done if all the neighbors are not willing. Private property is a problem.
And given that, can you think of any other solution? Because expropriating is very slow.
M. B: I am fatalistic because I believe that we are not going to have resources; optimistic because I believe that, when the effects of change are so serious, humanity will solve the problem, even if it is with damage. We have had time to do it democratically and we have done practically nothing. We will solve it, but not exactly with democracy.
J. G: Very drastic things were done during Covid that no one thought were possible. Radical solutions are possible. The awareness that the climate is changing has grown a lot, so it can go faster. Putin accelerated Europe’s decarbonization process in one night, when he attacked Ukraine. Everyone thought that we could not live without Putin’s gas and it soon became clear that we could live without problems. Renewable energy and network construction accelerated.
M. B: Putin’s case was an ideological position. That cars have to pass through all the streets is also an ideological position. In the United States there is a federal law that says that every house must have two trees in front of it. That would transform European cities and have a very powerful effect on the impact of climate change. Why do not you do? For an ideological question. When are we going to change the values perceived as universal and absolute?
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