Russian human rights activist, chairman of the Civic Assistance Committee Svetlana Gannushkina, in an interview with DW, told how she assesses the current situation and the attitude of Russians to the war unleashed in Ukraine.
DW: How do you assess what is happening now? This war that Russia unleashed against Ukraine, cynically calling it a military operation?
Svetlana Gannushkina: First, I rate this as an absolute nightmare. I think this is the most terrible event in my 80 years of life. I don’t think this has ever happened before. We have experienced a lot, I still remember the Second World War a little, although it ended when I was 3 years old. I remember, however, mostly salutes of victory. Because I began to realize this when everything was over. I remember how the defeated Germans walked along our lane, and I stood with the nanny and watched. I saw that these people had done something very bad, and at the same time they made me feel sorry, because they were pitiful, unhappy, they were driven somewhere in gray pea coats with the same gray faces. Everyone stood in complete silence and watched. And I was tormented in my soul, because I understood that these were bad people – on the one hand, and on the other hand, I felt sorry for them. And the nanny then said: “Poor, poor, what have they done,” and it became easy for me. And what we see now… Someday our people will be led like that. And I’m not sure anyone will take pity on them.
Svetlana Gannushkina
There is no excuse for what is happening now. This is complete madness and we are being made accomplices in this madness. This is impossible to put up with. Despite the fact that all the time while the war was being discussed, I had memories in my head. It was deja vu of 1968, as our authorities endlessly said that there would be no introduction of troops into Czechoslovakia. And we thought, what is it really, to believe it or not – and we wanted to believe, and in the end you know how it ended. They sent troops to Czechoslovakia. We thought about it. But when it started, it was still unexpected. What is happening now, such a state of society and country, is incompatible with the life of this society and country.
– Tell me, is there a chance to stop it, how can I stop it?
– I don’t know how to stop it, because, unfortunately, it depends on one person, whom everyone somehow managed to obey. And I can’t imagine how we can finish this, what we have to do for this, what to say. You know that a million people have already supported the petition: “No to war!”. But no one pays attention to it. Of course, a million out of 140 million is not such a large percentage, it is less than a percentage. But nevertheless, this is still a million, this is a large number of people, and then we must take into account that there are people who are afraid. They are afraid of losing their jobs, they are afraid for themselves.
We have allowed a lot of things, we have allowed endless numerous electoral fraud. We admitted that we have absolutely no independent judiciary. It’s already completely destroyed. We have allowed a lot of things during this time and we have lost influence on the authorities. And those who are close to power have lost influence on that one person who managed, being a rather insignificant person – this happens, unfortunately – to subjugate his environment and, in general, subjugate the world. The world was watching. There was a feeling that everyone around them also did not understand what was happening in Russia, when there was Chechnya, when Grozny was bombed, when we came to talk about it in Europe.
Many people, in particular, Shenderovich came up with such a comparison – little Tsakhes. Indeed, Putin began to look for people not who he really is – not for everyone, but for many. And here is the result. Now, in general, we need to talk not about this, but really about how to stop it. People take to the streets every day, people are grabbed. We don’t know what else can be done. We say what we think. We are closing the radio – the only one that spoke the truth. It is quite possible to imagine that they will close the connection that is now possible via the Internet. All this can be. It is not clear how this will develop further. How to counter this is also unclear.
– Yes, a depressing picture …
– The picture is really depressing. You can feel like a hero by going out into the street and serving 15 days. But it’s funny. What can it help? Here, if it does not help, if it does not affect people, even the fact that we see pictures of the dead. Well, you do not feel sorry for others, but these are your sons. What else could there be? What else could be the argument?
When there was a war in Chechnya, soldiers’ mothers went there, took prisoners, brought back captured Chechens. And now the Chechens are fighting there. Ramzan Kadyrov is gathering troops there. And before that, he offered Putin to conquer Ukraine for him. All this is very sad and it is impossible to imagine the resolution of such a conflict. It is absolutely clear that what happened to Belgrade and Baghdad will not happen to Moscow. Because in the hands of the one who sits in Moscow, nuclear weapons. And this is a man who will not hesitate to destroy the whole world. He’s crazy!
– But this is a threat to Russia too…
– Yes, of course, this is a threat to Russia too. And Russia and Ukraine, indeed, are so closely connected. No matter how much it is said that we can no longer be brothers. Here, you see, there is real kinship, blood, everyone has relatives with whom we write off, call up, talk. We receive information all the time from our colleagues with whom we have worked for decades. And find out where they are, what they are. I constantly call there, asking what you have, what the other has. And it is clear that this war has separated us. They suffer there, and we, of course, we do not suffer as they do. But this other feeling is the feeling of guilt, which is destructive for a person.
And what else can we do? I don’t know what else we can do. I don’t know what can be done to change this. When Nero set fire to Rome, he thought he would go down in history. And, apparently, this idea also fascinates Putin. It makes no sense to say that he does not receive information that actually takes place, that he is being lied to, because one of the indispensable qualities of a leader is to provide himself with the correct information. This is his professional job – not to extract information, but to provide himself with people who will tell him what is really there. So the responsibility for the fact that he does not receive the necessary information – if this is the case, as some say – then this responsibility also lies with him.
But, on the other hand, of course, I don’t want to put all the blame on Putin. It would be ridiculous. The people around him are responsible for this. And for the fact that he was in power, we are responsible. No matter how much each of us says that he never voted for him and did not elect him. Still, if there is some kind of we, which is defined as a nation, as a people, then we have elected it and we are responsible. But it all turns into pathos words. And what to do tomorrow, I do not know. I understand what exactly I will do. People will come, we will help them. People come, they say, where are Putin’s 10 thousand (promised by Putin for refugees from Donbass – Ed.)? In some regions, it turns out to get them, get them. In some, no. And today a woman came who came to Russia to live in Russia. She received a residence permit today, but she has nowhere to live. And it is already impossible to return to Ukraine. Already those who were ready to accept it left. So we provided her with some money. And what will happen next is unclear. One thing is clear – we cannot wash ourselves off this, each of us needs to understand this.
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