The Cross : Work concerns our common good and cannot be reduced to an individual project, this is what the Social Weeks support. In your opinion, are we still in this paradigm of common analysis of work?
Sophie Thiery: I think that the crisis we are experiencing around the loss of meaning in work derives precisely from the disappearance of this model. The crux of this crisis lies in the absence of consideration – in every sense of the word – for work. The content of the work itself is no longer recognized. The question of the meaning of work arose long after Covid, a period after which France experienced a period of unprecedented recruitment difficulties. We question ourselves more about the social usefulness of our work, about the need to contribute to a project bigger than ourselves…
ST: Covid acted as an accelerator. In most structures, including the association and hospital sectors, management is no longer done only by numbers. Managers, busy with reporting needs, no longer have the time to give meaning to their teams and support them: they are interested in the result but little in the content of the activity itself. The problem does not come from them but from the managerial practices induced by the managers themselves, inserted into a financialized system that encourages the quantification of everything.
ST: Not only that. France is poorly positioned compared to European countries both in terms of working conditions and in terms of physical and mental health. This is due to insufficient prevention policies but also to the structure of the workplace. It took time to collectively become aware that health professions are very exposed, for example, especially because they are increasingly autonomous or self-employed, so people are alone faced with the risk of deterioration of their health. Regarding mental health, for the first time in 2022, days of absence from work related to mental health problems became higher than those related to physical health. The French feel bad at work.
ST: We have allowed the meaning and organization of work to deteriorate and settle into a logic of employment and performance. The ecological transition requires reshuffling the cards of the distribution of jobs according to the major sectors of activity in France. But for people to want to work in construction or agriculture, in professions perceived as difficult, we need to improve their working conditions, take into account their exposure to risks, give them prospects for advancement. In a word, we must collectively put the job issue at the center of the debate. I fear that with the return of social plans, as we see with Michelin or Auchan, we are putting the issue of employment back in the foreground while neglecting that of work, without understanding that this is the mistake.
ST: What is most lacking is being able to talk about work as closely as possible to work situations. Since the last legislation on the organization of social dialog, in 2017, we have observed a centralization of social dialog in businesses and administrations. Social dialog no longer takes place directly on construction sites but above all in company headquarters. Perhaps the time has come to reinvent new forms of local dialog about work.
ST: I think the ways of engagement, especially among young people, are changing. Commitment takes on new forms but does not diminish. On the other hand, many voluntary professions are not recognized and promote inequalities. It is particularly observed in helping the elderly or people with disabilities. Eleven million people in France – especially women – find themselves in a care situation: either this time is added to paid work and creates situations of exhaustion, or it replaces paid work and creates inequalities between men and women.
ST: In fact, one might imagine that this is part of the solution. This is the idea of the universal time savings account, which would allow you to accumulate ”time rights” throughout your professional career, to be used in the moments you deem important; raising your children, taking care of an elderly person, preparing for a sporting endeavour…
As for the four-day week, we see it at a European level, as long as it is experimental within voluntary companies it works, especially when it is associated with a reduction in working hours. But what works on a case-by-case basis in a negotiated framework is not the solution for all companies or administrations, because it raises questions about the organization of production but also about the quality of work and the risk of intensification. It seems to me that the priority is not the reduction of working hours, but the quality of work.
How can organizations effectively prioritize employee wellbeing while addressing employment issues?
Interview Between Time.news Editor and Sophie Thiery on the Future of Work and Social Relevance
Editor: Good morning, Sophie. Thank you for joining us today. Your insights into the changing landscape of work are incredibly timely. To start, can you elaborate on the idea that the current crisis in the workplace stems from a lack of emphasis on the common good? Are we still operating within that paradigm?
Sophie Thiery: Good morning! Yes, I believe we are witnessing a significant shift away from the paradigm that emphasizes the common good in work. The crisis of meaning in our professional lives has deep roots in this shift. The pandemic acted as an accelerant, revealing how the essence of work—its social usefulness and its contribution to a greater cause—has been largely sidelined. It’s no longer sufficient for people to just clock in and out; they want to feel that their work has a purpose beyond individual achievement.
Editor: That makes sense. You mentioned that management in various sectors has become too focused on numbers and outcomes rather than the underlying purpose of work. How has that impacted employee morale and health?
Sophie Thiery: It’s had a profound impact. Managers, particularly in sectors like healthcare and non-profits, often find themselves trapped in a cycle of reporting and metrics. They may be driven by financialized systems that prioritize results, but this comes at the cost of meaningful engagement with their teams. Consequently, we’re seeing a decline in both physical and mental health among employees. For the first time, in 2022, mental health-related absences outpaced those due to physical health issues in France. This shows that workers are increasingly struggling, and it reflects a crisis in how we value work itself.
Editor: It’s alarming to hear that the French workforce is feeling this way. You mentioned that working conditions in France are lagging compared to other European countries. What specific changes do you believe should be made to improve this situation?
Sophie Thiery: We need to shift our focus back to the organization of work and its inherent meaning. For instance, sectors like agriculture and construction are essential but often viewed as unappealing. To attract workers, we must enhance conditions in these fields. This includes better health protections, career advancement opportunities, and addressing exposure to risks. We’ve let the conversation about employment overshadow the more critical discussion on the quality of work itself.
Editor: As we face layoffs at companies like Michelin and Auchan, you fear that this emphasis will further diminish. How do we strike the right balance between these discussions on employment and work?
Sophie Thiery: Precisely! While we must address employment concerns, we cannot neglect the quality of work. This is where the heart of the issue lies. Current trends suggest that employment issues will take the forefront, but if we ignore how work is organized and the conditions under which it happens, we will continue perpetuating this cycle of dissatisfaction. We need a holistic dialog that considers both factors simultaneously.
Editor: You touched on the dismantling of social dialog at the grassroots level—why do you think it’s crucial to bring that conversation back to the work environment itself?
Sophie Thiery: It’s essential because those closest to the work often have the best insights into how to improve it. Since the 2017 legislation, there’s been a shift towards centralization of discussions in corporate offices, which often disconnects management from actual work conditions. Re-establishing direct dialog on construction sites and in various workplaces can foster an environment where workers’ voices influence decisions. It’s about being close to the realities of work.
Editor: It seems like a true reinvention of our approach to work might be necessary. how can we encourage a cultural shift that prioritizes both the quality of work and the wellbeing of employees?
Sophie Thiery: We can start by collectively redefining the conversation around work. Acknowledging the importance of the common good as a core component can pave the way for new values in workplaces. At the same time, we must advocate for policies that promote better working conditions, especially in high-risk sectors. If we weave health, purpose, and social utility into the fabric of work, we can inspire a sense of fulfillment and community, fostering both individual and collective wellbeing.
Editor: Thank you, Sophie, for these insightful perspectives. It’s clear that reimagining work is not just a necessity but a social imperative. We appreciate your time today.
Sophie Thiery: Thank you for having me! It’s been a pleasure discussing these vital issues.